Doctrine and Leaders

Is doctrine important for leaders? Or are leaders only to be concerned about administration, organizing, and directing? Here are some thoughts to consider. 

Brother to Brother is a podcast focusing on leadership skills and issues that leaders face in serving within the church, hosted by Rod McNair and Jonathan McNair.

Transcript

 Hi, I'm Jonathan McNair. And I'm Rod McNair. And this is Brother to Brother.

Well, it's been a while since we've done one of these, so let's see if we can remember how, again, this is a podcast about leadership and leadership specifically within the church, uh, for those who are in official leadership roles, but also those who'd like to grow in in leadership. Uh, talking about different concepts of leadership and how we apply it in the church.

So today, uh, my brother Rod had a topic and I sometimes I, I, I have to identify the voice because our voices sound very similar. So, um, I, I will, for, if you're listening to this. Uh, with audio, I'm going to identify that this is Jonathan and I'm going to be speaking to my brother Rod, who will now explain the topic that you brought to the table.

Well, thank you. Yes, this is, this is Rod and, um, it is good to be back in the saddle here. It's been, uh, it's been a little while, but it's good to be back with all of you. Uh, we are just, uh, re-recording this just a short time before Atonement. And, um, recently, uh, we got an email that was forwarded to me and it was from someone who had seen the telecast that I gave on the Day of Atonement.

About the Day of Atonement. Not on the Day of Atonement. No, because that's not on the of Atonement. That's right. About, okay. Explaining the Day of Atonement. Okay. And, uh, this person said it was, it was helpful. It was, uh, you know, they, they learned a lot. But the thing they did not agree with was, uh, where I talked about how Christ represented one of the goats, the, the one slain and the other represented Satan, the devil.

And, uh, this person who actually happened to be a, a former member of the living Church of God and at some point along the way has left us and, and then has absorbed the idea that. Both goats represent Jesus Christ, which is a common, uh, Protestant idea. It, it's, you know, we find that in a lot of commentaries.

Um, but, uh, what struck me was as, uh, as I was reading this email and thinking about how to reply, because. It's good to, uh, to good, to acknowledge people, uh, when they write in like that was, um, first of all, how how easily some of these ideas can be, can trip us up mm-hmm. If we're not careful. And, uh, it, it caused me to do a little bit more reading and a little digging and, and what I found was, first of all, we have a number of, um, sermons as well as articles on the topic, on the subject.

Mm-hmm. Uh. The other thing is that, um, this whole idea of, of Christ being both the, the, the goat that was sl representing his death and then the goat that was sent away alive, representing, um, maybe our sins being taken away or, or his resurrection. Uh, this is not a new concept, and yet I think for people who get tripped up with it.

It's sort of something that they feel like some in the church have learned new and it's exciting. I, I found that, uh, Tertullian and, uh, Justin Martyr, who were both so-called church fathers back in the early centuries after the, the beginning of the church, both of them believe this and taught this. So it, it's like so many, uh, heresies false doctrines.

That have not been a part of the Church of God, uh, historically, you know, even in recent times in the decades, uh, of, under Mr. Armstrong, et cetera. And yet, from time to time these things crop up and trip some people up who are. Maybe not as careful or, or, uh, a little bit too open to be looking at, uh, some of these things which are frankly very, very deceptive ideas.

And so I thought, well, this is a great time to talk a little bit about this topic and maybe even more importantly, what we as leaders in a local congregation do with. What happens when, when false doctrines, when, when, um, heresies are coming around and what do we do with them? So, so I'm, as you're talking, I'm thinking.

So, um, first that it's important for leaders to be solid in doctrine, right? We've seen that this is the first thing that it is not. You know, leaders are not just about giving orders or, or even just organizing and administering, um, leaders in the church. You know, this is if you, if you're in a business or something that that's, that's different.

But within the church, it, it would seem that one of the most important things is to be doctrinally sound. And I think we could do a couple scriptures that, uh, that, that make that very clear. But, and then the other is how to deal with false doctrine. It is important that leaders do. Deal with heresy when it's introduced.

And, um, that's important as well. So that could be another thing might talk about for a second. Um, you know, as you're talking just it reminds me of, of, uh, of, I'll say a concept that have been thinking about and that is that, um, different groups that have, I'll say, come part, come from part of the Church of God background, let's just say broadly speaking.

Mm-hmm. Um, that have picked up. Uh, false doctrines. They have picked up heretical ideas. Just call 'em what they are. Heretical ideas. It could be about, for example, sacred name. That's a popular one that seems to pop up. In fact, you, you know, when you talk about these, uh, some of these doctrines, these false ideas have been around for a while.

When I was just, I don't know, last year or so, I was working on a church history class for our students and I in reading Mr. Armstrong's autobiography. I realize, and I, I guess I just never seen that before, that he dealt with that, what, 80 years ago, 70 years ago, right? Back in the early days of his ministry, that was an issue.

And, uh, so this, this, the idea of the sacred name and that you can only use that name when referring to, uh, to to God, and so on and so forth. So that's not a new one, but it. I'll say, uh, I, I, that I have a phrase I, I think fits and that is dead end doctrines. Mm-hmm. You know, they're doctrines that can be all they, they really can be all consuming to a person so that they, they literally will get so fixated on it that number one, they, it, it fills their mind.

Mm-hmm. And secondarily, they actually are willing to turn their back on the truth, the work, et cetera. Um, be because they get so fixated on a particular doctrine. And so I say dead end because it really, it takes them off and dead end. And, and there are some organizations, honestly, that have been, become defined by, I wanna say dead end doctrines, sacred name, the calendar issues, um, and this, this issue as well.

Uh, and, and there are others, but Right. But you know, they're dead end doctrines because they take somebody away from, from the work and the truth. Um. I think, I think it'd be a good time to go ahead and read a couple of scriptures that, uh, that, uh, speak to the importance of leaders in the church, uh, and doctrine.

Absolutely. So here's one in second Timothy chapter two in verse one. Paul is writing Timothy, you therefore my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus and the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses. Commit these to faithful men. Who will be able to teach others also. And that, that's really a, a powerful concept here.

Um, that we teach what we have been taught. Mm-hmm. And again, as you say, you know, we don't need to be someone who is standing up at the pulpit to be in that sense, uh, having a, a, a, a bit of a leading role or, or teaching role. Uh, sometimes just, uh, mature, um, longtime members who have been around. Mm-hmm. And they are patiently continuing in the truth and, and, and listening and humbly accepting, you know, the truth that we've been taught for decades.

They've been taught for decades, you know, just by their example. Mm-hmm. They. Are helping to, to in, in one sense, teach others who are newer or younger, that you don't have to go after every crazy idea. Yeah. You really do have to think what was I taught? How did I first learn the truth? What was the, the, the mechanism who.

Who did God work through? Mm-hmm. What organization did God work through? And, uh, that's a big deal. Y you know, it reminds me of the fact that, as a, I'll say as a minister, as an elder, as a pastor, when there are people within the congregation who are solid doctrinally, it, it, it holds. You as a, an elder, as a pastor, it holds you to account because it does if, because it, I mean, I'll speak for myself.

Yeah. When I know there are people in the audience who have been, uh, holding faster the truth longer than I've been alive. It, it, it actually yeah. Really encourages me to make sure that what I'm saying is accurate and, and not. Not veering off into my own ideas. Right. Or into twigs or into little areas that don't have ha really saw have, have solid support.

Yeah. Um, I, I think that a solid doc sound members can help encourage a leader to, uh, to be doctrinally sound. Yeah. But, but still, for the leader to be doctrinally sound is really important because there's a. An outsized influence. Mm-hmm. When a, a leader, someone in a leadership role in the congregation has, uh, is, is speaking and is teaching and is explaining, uh, there's one in one Timothy four as well.

Paul was, again, still writing to Timothy in this case. He says, uh, this is one Timothy chapter four, verse six. If you instruct the brethren in these things. You'll be a good minister of Jesus Christ nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine, which you have carefully followed, but reject profane and old wives fables and exercise yourself toward godliness.

So there's this emphasis, um, and even when he says, let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the example to the believers in word in conduct. And love and spirit and faith and purity tell I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. So doctrine is really important according to Paul and, and, and holding Timothy to a high standard that would help him to do a, a good job as a, a leader within the church.

It, it really is, and I think as, as you're saying here. Um, uh, we have, if we have a, in a role of influence, we have an outsized, um, leverage, let's say. Uh, and we have to be careful, uh, if, if, if others look up to us to whatever degree, as an example, um, it matters. Uh, I'm looking at Hebrews chapter 12 and this says, um.

He is talking about, uh, in verse 14, uh, looking carefully, lest anyone fall short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble. And by this be, uh, many become defiled. Now, that's a slightly different topic of, of being bitter, being offended, that sort of thing. But I think the same principle applies that if we allow ourself.

To go astray, to go off track. We're not an island. No one is an island. They're all, we all have people we influence. We all have people who, who, who look at us. And maybe, maybe not necessarily, uh, you know, uh, every last thing that we say or do. They would necessarily follow every last thing, but we might shake their.

Their faith. Mm-hmm. We might shake their commitment. We might cause them to stumble. And that's a, that's a pretty big deal. Mm-hmm. You know, um. As a pastor in teaching congregations. Um, I've always thought, and I don't know where I heard this, but, but, uh, I'm, I imagine it was somebody who was a, a mentor to me, but I've always thought that it's good as a, a pastor in giving sermons to roughly divide into three parts.

The, the, the categories of sermons, doctrine, Christian living and prophecy. Now, I, I'm not saying it has to be exactly. Along those lines. Mm-hmm. But I, I think if a, if a pastor can be able to, um, at, at least categorize his sermons. As one of those three. Mm-hmm. When he gives a sermon and you're recording your sermons, it, it helped me to look back over the time and see, okay, am I spending all my time in Christian living?

Because, you know, maybe I, I like to, you know, I like to, I like to give stories and I like to talk in stories. Yeah. And I like to, to bring principles to life, which is all well and good, but looking back over, over time, if you're not spending a good chunk of your time. Reviewing doctrines and, and teaching doctrine and also prophecy.

Mm-hmm. Then you're really not providing a balanced diet for your congregation. So doctrine's important, the teaching of doctrine. Yes. The, the knowledge and, uh, and willingness to, uh, to be a, a, a sound source of, of true doctrine is important. Absolutely. Uh, it, it matters. Doctrine matters. I think we, you know, going back to, uh, worldwide days, uh, those of us who were there, um, it's interesting that the think error is always couched in this is new.

Mm. Mm-hmm. This is something you've, you, you, you know, you've not heard before. This is new truth. Mm-hmm. And, um. As you were talking about a moment ago, uh, some of these issues that Mr. Armstrong wrestled with early in his ministry. Um, some of the things that we can see were taught by the early so-called church fathers.

I remember, um, the, the, you know, the, the leadership of Worldwide Church of God when it was going astray. Introducing ideas, uh, just Protestant, mainstream. Christian ideas as if it was new, as if they, wow, these were things they were learning and, and because they were really finally digging into the Bible and those who were actually reading their Bible and had come out of, let's say, uh, other churches, or maybe not come out of other churches, but recognize what they talk.

They recognize this is nothing new. This is, this is just, it is old stuff that is just rehashed. And I guess, you know, it, isn't it ironic even that, in, in terms of the, the topic we're talking about is talking about Satan as a deceiver. Mm-hmm. And, and how the Day of Atonement, part of the Day of Atonement is specifically geared to unmask.

Satan as his, uh, in his role as being the deceiver, and yet one of his deceptions is to get people, you know, mainstream Christians, to not recognize that he is a deceiver. Mm-hmm. And even some of our people who have gotten tripped up by that through, through this doctrine and how important it is for us to.

To, to hold fast to the truth and be a part of the bull work that is supporting the truth in the church. So, let me ask you this, what are some of the ways that I'll say true doctrine, um, is undermined or attacked? So one is this, this strategy of, of, uh, promoting something as new, new truth, which as we said, um.

I don't know. I've just found inevitably anything that I've heard as something that new, if you look hard enough, you'll see it's not new at all. So that, that's one. That's one. Mm-hmm. Here's another one I can think of, and that is the strawman technique. I'm thinking back to, uh, when false doctrine was introduced in worldwide.

So here, here's how it goes. You know what, Mr. Armstrong was not right in every way. Well, and you're going to have, what? What do you do? Right? You have to say, uh, or you might call the vacuum. The vacuum cleaner salesman, you know, argument, you get the vacuum cleaner salesman gets you going along. Yeah. You don't want to have dirty carpets, do you?

Oh, of course not. So you're now, you're already going down that road. Right? Right. This is what, this is what they, this is what was said. I can't tell you how many times I heard it where, well, you know, Mr. Armstrong wasn't right in every way about everything. Right? Yeah. Well, you have to say. Of, of course, because nobody's perfect.

Right? So, so the next step was, well, and then it would say, well there's an area he didn't really know that much about. He didn't know everything, so. Mm-hmm. So what happens is they set up the straw man that you start beating with a stick. Mm-hmm. And then be, in this sense it was Mr. Armstrong in his teaching.

And uh, and then they would use it to introduce something else. Mm-hmm. And you know, the listeners already agreeing. And, uh, that it's, it's a, it's a psychological technique. Yeah. Those are two that I can think of. What you can think, you can think of. Any others? Well, I can think of another one where, you know, I read a little while ago about, about being careful to teach what you've been taught.

I've heard this, this, um, reasoning, well, you know, if you go down that line, we're just becoming like the Catholic church, not willing to change or something. Not willing and, and blindly. Following whatever we're taught. Yeah. And maybe that's similar to what you're saying is sort of a straw man. Um, as, as if following teachers Yeah.

Is blindly following them. Like the Catholic church. Yeah. There, there, there's no comparison at all. No. In fact, um. When, um, you know, sometimes, uh, some can get tripped up by the concept of proving all things as if we have to go dumpster diving. Yeah. As if we have to go through trash. Literally as if we're, you know, imagine, imagine the typical dumpster and that you've gotta, you gotta sift through all of that garbage.

Why? Because who knows? Maybe there's something valuable there. Yeah. I don't think that's what proving all things means. Yeah. You know, he, God is not telling us that we have to. We have to fill our minds with every form of garbage. Yeah. To evaluate it. Can you imagine how, how much time wasted that would be and how much polluted we would become just by doing that?

So it clearly does not mean, uh, listen to everything you hear. Yeah. Have you ever felt, felt like you're, you're being manipulated right from the get go When somebody says in a letter or in an argument, who, who wants to produce, who wants to promote? And demand that you accept their I idea. And, and I'll say false idea, but they want, and what they want you to accept it and what, so what they'll say is, and it leads out like this, you know, true ministers of God are, are willing to actually change if they are, are, are proven wrong.

I'm going to show you something and, and this is the truth. Yeah. Now the, the ob so now the, the logical collusion, you've been proven wrong. E exactly. And so are you willing to change? Exactly. And so immediately you're set up is. Ha having to change to agree with them to be a true minister of God. Right? And it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's like a psychological trick, right?

Oh, man, I hate that when that happens because it's so, it's so transparent, right? They're so convicted of, of their little heretical idea, right? If you don't go along with them, then you are not, you're unwilling to, unwilling to change. That's not it at all. Right. The, the idea is not, is not true. Um, another one is the, I'll say the academic, the academic angle.

So in other words, it's, uh, it's the idea trying to prove through a, a complicated, I'll say, academic argument, um, about maybe a nuance of a word or something like, like that. Mm-hmm. Um, as opposed to. Really the preponderance of scriptures that actually support what we teach. And, uh, so it'll be a nitpicky thing.

That's another, I'll say enemy to, to, uh, to true doctrine. And, and that's, that is our topic here. We're saying here, look, and, and as a leader, we have to value the truth. Doctrine is important as a leader. We're not just administrators. Somebody who's fulfilling a leadership role, right? Right. And obviously we say even as influence, you know that that's leadership, right?

But, but, but doctrine is what we're about. In fact, it's a defining characteristic, not, I'm not just going to say a living church of God, of the church of God, right? It says the church is the pillar and ground of of truth, of the truth, right? That's what Paul told Timothy as well. It's the pillar and ground of the, of the truth.

So the truth is, IM is should be important to us. It sanctifies us, it sets us apart. Why, why would Jesus say that? Unless truth, meaning not just any information, but but true things that God has said. I mean, he talks about how his, his word is living and, uh, and it sets us apart. And so, you're right, it's extremely, extremely important.

So the, the title we'll put on this will be something like, and we're still, we have to work on this, but the title will be something like, um. Leaders and truth. How's that sound? That sounds good. Leaders and truth. I like it. I like it. Oh, leaders and true doctrine, because we want to include the, the, the, the doctrine part of that.

Right. Leaders and, and true doctrine or maybe it's leaders and doctrine and We'll, this explanation of it being the truth will be important in that. So, right. This is a, this is a brainstorming part of the, of the session. Thanks for joining us for Yeah, we're, as we brainstorm the title, we'll get back to you when we, when we get this all figured out.

But, but, but you know, in the introduction you mentioned, um. Not only the importance of doctrine, but also what to do when false doctrine is being introduced. So why don't you speak to that for a moment? Well, essentially we have a responsibility to defend the the truth. And so we are, um, we as individuals now, maybe, uh, every last person is not, as we've said, is not the one standing up and teaching everyone else.

But we certainly have the responsibility of, of, if, if, if someone, uh, around us is bringing false doctrine, we, especially if we're in a leadership role, Hmm. We have the responsibility of not just being quiet, uh, and ignoring it. Um, or, or certainly accepting it. But, but, uh, you know, addressing it Sure. And saying, you know, wait a minute.

That, that's, I'm not, not sure that you're right on that. You know, let, let's, let's talk about what does the church teach? What does the Bible teach? Which, which actually means that recognizing falsehood, recognizing heresy versus. The truth, the doctrines or teachings of, of the Bible recognizing it is important.

So if all of us, particularly as leaders, if our job is to protect and defend, we have to be able to recognize danger, right? And, and, but that would really apply to every, every single member, uh, honestly, of the Church of the Body to recognize danger. You know, you think about it, if our bodies. Uh, come into contact with a poison or with something that's dangerous, no matter where it touches the body, it, it hurts.

It has an impact. Mm. And so, but particularly as, uh, as leaders, so you, I would think that recognizing it is important, which means we need to be studying our Bibles. Mm-hmm. We need to be really carefully studying the, the, the instruction and teaching that we're getting locally or, or from the church, uh, from headquarters, from our magazines, et cetera.

Um, so we need to be thoroughly versed in the truth. And then the, the next step is, is how do we address it? And, and I think it's different for a, a, a member versus, I'll say an elder. Sure, but, but it doesn't mean a member can't, who, who's, doesn't have the authority to, uh, you know, to ask the person to lead necessarily.

Right. But it doesn't mean a member can't say, hold on a second. I, I don't think that what you're saying is accurate. Um, you know, I can show you, or it might be good for you to speak to Mr. Mr. Jones about that, the elder. Right. Because what you're saying, and I, I'm really not interested in, in going down this road because this is, this is not accurate.

This is not where the Bible teaches. And, um, so you need to speak to the, to the elder about that, but not, I'm not, I'm not going to be, uh, buying what you're selling. Right. And I think you should. Right. And frankly, I mean. You know, you can say, well, that's confrontational, but I mean, that's actually going to your brother.

That, that's, that's being, um, being upfront with, um, you know, if our brother was, uh, you know, involved in a, in a sin, yeah. That is just going to destroy them or bring or bring it into the congregate, you know, if they had a rattlesnake and they're bringing it into the middle of the group, right. Right. I was saying, well, you, you'd wanna, you'd want to try to help them.

And I, I, like you were talking about a, a poison that is afflicting a body. Well, I mean, Christ talks about wolves in sheep's clothing. Mm-hmm. And so we have to understand that some, um, not that, not that, say a person who is starting to, um. A question or, or necessarily they're a wolf. Maybe they're listening to a wolf.

Mm-hmm. Maybe they're open to, too, open to listening to false doctrines and, and a friend can actually, as you said, pull 'em aside and say, Hey, you know what? That doesn't sound accurate. And, and um, and, and you know, you, you really need to talk to somebody or you know, look at our booklet. You know, I read that about that last week.

And that's not what it says. That's not what the Bible says. But recognizing that there really is a spiritual warfare going on. Mm-hmm. And that there really is an adversary. And again, ironically. The whole topic is talking about our adversary and, and, and being able to recognize him. Yeah. And yet he wants to be kind of shrouded in, in mystery and behind the scenes.

Um, we have to recognize that there are ideas that come from wolves. Mm-hmm. Not sheep. And, you know, we do value in the living church of God, we value. Truth and truth in doctrine. And, and the reason I say that is because there are some organizations that are much more, uh, big tent. Mm-hmm. And, and, um, will, will, uh, be willing to accept a, a variety of, of angles on a particular doctrine.

And, and the, the approach is that, well, um, as long as we just believe. The Sabbath together or the Holy Days, right? Um, these things, they, they really don't matter, but, you know, we do value, we, we, it does matter. Doctrine is actually, in fact, this is one of the things that we've, from the beginning, Mr. Mr.

Meredith, uh, emphasized, and that is that it's not about people, you know, it's not about, um, who, who gives wh, which even organization or COG group or whatever has the most. Charismatic leader or leaders or whatever else, all it, it, it's not about following somebody. And, uh, it's not about men ultimately doctrine and where the truth is is very important.

Right? And we, and we value that, right? We, we hold that dear. So, uh, doctrine should be part of the a, a leader's, um, mind. It should be something that's on their mind when they value, they cherish and they're willing to defend. Yeah, so that's right. As, as someone years ago said, there are three reasons why they came out of worldwide and then came into Global Church of God as it was at at that time.

Number one, doctrine, number two, doctrine, and number three, doctrine. There you go. So I mean, that, that's it. It what we teach. Yeah. Well even, and what we're being taught, and even, even we would say, well, what about the work? But the work is doctrine because That's right. It's the doc, the, the, the scriptures actually emphasize the importance of doing the work so that actually it's doing the work is, is a doctrinal issue.

It is a teaching. Right. Um, you know, church government, that is a doctrinal teaching. It's not just an administrative. Issue. Right. It is a doctrinal teaching. Right. That is reflected in the Bible. So, uh, that's important. Um, so is it time for the quiz now? Do you, do, do I get to quiz you or you get to quiz me or we get to quiz the audience?

I think we should quiz the audience. We are going to put up a pop quiz that pops up right about this point for our audience. That's, that'd be great. Yeah. How could we, well, how could we find out who gets who? Who gets the highest score though? I think that would be, it's all anonymous, so, and it's on the honor system, I suppose that they will know unless we would have them sign it and then we could post all the responses.

Oh, I like that. That would be fun. I like that. I like how you think. I like that. Well, do, do you have any other comments to add before we wrap it up here? Yeah, so just, uh, just closing the loop here on this issue again, it was a, a question about the day of atonement and then the meaning of the two goats.

And, um, and as we are in those days of the fall feast days, the, the, this season it's just. Interesting how, uh, some of these, what what you might think is just a, ah, that's just a picky point. It's a semantic, you know, argument. Mm-hmm. And yet the identification of the, the second goat is so important. I'm just reading here in Revelation chapter 20 and talking about verse one, how then he says, I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. Isn't it interesting how the Day of Atonement, one of the central focuses when we, when we look at history and we look at the events, the, um, chronological events that are going to happen just ahead of us with Christ's return.

And then Satan being bound right here. Yeah. And then leading up right into the millennium. And the Day of Atonement is right between the Feast of Trumpets. Yeah. And the Feast of Tabernacles. And it's staring us in the face. Yeah. And yet how easily. Yeah. If we're not careful, we can, we can go down a dead end doctrine.

Yeah. And so it's just a warning for, for all of us, isn't it, in this time. And, and I, I, I think, like, I think you'd mentioned before, but um, you've got a couple of, I think in here on the table, but, um, if anybody wants to dig into this, to this doctrine, understanding this how, again, in recent years, this has been raised right by, by some that the, the two goats.

On the Day of Atonement, that one was, one was sacrificed and one was let out into the wilderness, and the one that was sacrificed symbolizes Christ and his sacrifice. The one that was let out into the wilderness symbolizes Satan. And, and this, this idea is that they both symbolize Christ. Right. And, and our, our articles on that topic, they plainly explained that.

Yeah, exactly. There's one right here from Mr. Nathan, uh, tale of Two Goats, September, October, 2019. It's in the lcn, and you can go to members.lcg.org. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, you type in Atonement and you, you'll, you'll find that you'll also find a sermon Mr. Westin gave several years ago. It was about, uh, the goats as well.

I think it might have the, the, the same. Uh, title. So you're right. It, it's been addressed. Um, and it's very helpful to review these things, especially this time of year, this year. And in fact, it helps to clarify it. Have you ever noticed that, um, that, uh, a doctrine, uh, when it's taught truthfully, it clarifies, right?

Same thing with, uh, Passover, for example. Uh, one of the things that happened at Worldwide as they were, uh, uh, really they were turning their back on truth was began to in, they began to introduce other terms apart from Passover, right? Communion, Eucharist, and so on and so forth, which actually blur the clear meaning of the Passover tying Christ's sacrifice.

In the New Testament, obviously to the Old Testament observance, and it's such clear, right, um, helpful understanding, very clear. And by blurring it, it actually, um, begins to separate it from some of the, the meaning of the, of the days, whether it be Passover or whether it be the Day of Atonement. So yeah, there, there's certainly, we have plenty written about it that can help to explain it.

If anybody wants to study. Further, which right would be a good thing, which would be a good idea. And again, that's on members.lcg.org and just type in the search bar, uh, atonement or two goats and, uh, a number of, uh, articles, references, sermons will come up. Great. Okay. Well, uh, thanks for your time and thank you that it, this has been fun again.

Let's do it again. Sometimes let's do it again. Let's not wait quite so long. That's right. Thanks for being with us here today. I am Jonathan McNair. And I'm Rob McNair. And this has been brother to Brother. Take care. Have a good, have a good, uh, fall Feast Stay season. Bye-Bye.